How Kelly Stranburg & Sara Kyle take community engagement to the next level

Nov 25, 2022
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Kelly Stranburg & Sara Kyle @ LE3 Solutions

Episode Summary

Join us as we discover how to create an engaging, impactful resident experience on Care - the Resident Experience Podcast from Welbi. This month, host Terry Wang chats with Kelly Stranburg & Sara Kyle, founders of LE3 Solutions, a strategic consulting firm that works with senior living and aging sports services, about how to take your community engagement to the next level with joy, passion and vitality for all individual experiences.

Every month on Care, host Terry Wang chats with some of the best leaders in senior living to discover and share innovative new strategies and perspectives that will impact communities for years to come.


Terrence Wang (Welbi)   00:00

You're listening to Care, the Resident Experience podcast from Welbi. Every month, we chat with some of the best leaders in senior living to discover and share innovative strategies and perspectives that will impact communities for years to come. This week, we're chatting with Sarah Kyle and Kelly Stranburg from LE3 Solutions, a strategic consulting firm that works with senior living and aging sports services. Both of you, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you guys doing?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   00:26

Doing well, thanks for having us.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   00:28

Yeah, thank you.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   00:29

And you guys are joining us from a little bit farther down in the U.S., correct?

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   00:33

Correct. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   00:36

And I am in Orlando, Florida.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   00:39

So a little bit of global traveling for all of us involved, just done virtually. And how did you guys start LE3?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   00:48

So interestingly enough, we started LE3 right at two years ago this May, and it was birthed out of kind of needing a new role in the space after positions were eliminated, but took kind of the expertise and area of work that we have been doing and reached out to former clients or colleagues and just gave it a run.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   01:12

Well, first off, congratulations on the upcoming anniversary. But before we get more into LE3, I realize we should probably talk about where you guys came from before you guys founded LE3, right? And unfortunately, roles being canceled or roles being removed is not something that we haven't heard before. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your experiences before LE3 and how they kind of impacted your decision making and the consulting efforts you put forward at LE3.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   01:43

Absolutely. So I entered the space back in 2008 with the intention of solely doing fitness programming for senior living communities. And about four months into that role, my responsibility went from this to this. My chief operating officer saw something in me that I did not see and said, why don't you be overall programming and amenity services for our residents? And I was like, “I know nothing about this space. What are you doing?” I learned a lot, was a sponge, was mentored and then have always held corporate support roles pertaining to resident engagement, wellbeing, lifestyle. I did a four-year role in a Life Plan Community or Continuing Care Retirement Community to overhaul their culture to one focused on wellness. And so all of these experiences, whether positions were eliminated or not, for a variety of reasons have really just fed into a lot of what we provide strategically through LE3 Solutions. Sara?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   02:52

So, a very similar entry. Same way, about 2009, got recruited to work in senior living that was predominantly skilled nursing and much like Kelly's background in exercise science. And so I was all about going to make skilled nursing residents move as much as possible and started out there and then realized there's this whole other aspect to wellbeing that has to be involved in that. So I spent some time in a corporate role from skilled and assisted, tried to do a little bit of consulting after that and then worked at Holiday, which was a predominantly independent living portfolio, and kind of took all that knowledge and just said, let's give it a go.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   03:33

And it can't have been easy jumping from well, I guess it can be simple if you know what you're doing, right? Jumping from that kind of corporate role to now you're consulting basically your past roles, correct?

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   03:45

In some regard. I think the funny thing though, is now Sara and I aren't only consulting on things we're passionate about and experienced with, but we're also our in-house accounting, marketing, IT support, business assistance, you name it. There's a lot of hats you wear when you embark out on your own and become consultants. And we knew that was part of it, but not to the extent. Some days I feel like we do more of all of those hats than our primary hats.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   04:21

Well, that's the other side of running a business, right? There's all the little pieces you don't really realize when you're just performing a specific role and then you kind of leave that role, look outside, you're like, wow, there are so many things I didn't even consider. With LE3, though, you guys only had this amazing opportunity and you guys are doing incredible with it because your roles basically were considered not important enough. But I think it's funny enough, over the last few years you guys have been working at LE3, you guys kind of have realized recreation and wellness have become more and more and more important, right? So much so that I think that will be the predominant factor in the future with senior living. Why do you think it was neglected in the past and why do you think it's changing now going into the future?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   05:04

The consumer is so different. I think we say this a lot that COVID highlighted the deficits in the space and what happens behind closed doors and how residents spend their day really does matter. Once you get rid of care and dietary or culinary, there's 20, 21 hours left in the day that we have to think about how people spend their time. And engagement is such a huge part of that and that overall quality of life. One thing that I saw internally is I think we do a not-so-great job talking about things for a long time before we make decisions internally. And we want to be perfect before we move forward or change a process or implement something new. What has allowed us to scale is twofold. One is that we're working on this vendor solution side. And so trying to match solutions and products for the space that we know from an operations perspective, but then also working on that operator solution, I mean, operator-owner side. And what we find is while we talked about a lot of this stuff internally in our corporate roles, the decision to move quickly and hire someone outside is a very different approach. I almost look back on my time at two large organizations and wish they would have hired an outside consultant to help push the endeavours I was working on forward. Because there's an urgency there from an outside lens.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   06:27

I would agree that there's a level of urgency and the outside source doesn't get bogged down in the day-to-day operational hurdles that get tossed at us in our space. And so it's easier to move initiatives forward. And if you've worked in senior living, you get bombarded with things you're not expecting. There's always fires to put out, if you will. And so having an outside partner helps to really get those initiatives where you desire them to be as an organization.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   07:01

To your point, Kelly, one thing I like about that is when we started, it looked a little bit different when we first started. We were working with operators when we would come in and do something. But we have found that we come in and we partner really closely with the direct care staff, I would say, that is running the recreation or engagement programs. So it does feel like a partnership and it's not us coming in saying, we think you should do it this way, but we sit down and we figure out a plan going forward that is not just our approach, but very specific and tailored to the current operator in their workforce.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   07:35

I think that brings up something really interesting, which is that a lot of senior living operators themselves are pretty bad at making these decisions. I don't know if it's urgent, but just quickly and at scale. You're running, I don't know, even for a reasonable, smaller-sized group of communities, you're talking about between 10 and 30 communities, and you're trying to implement, let's just say, a technology change. In senior living that can be like a year or two years of effort, right? Why do you think that is? Whereas other industries can get that change done in maybe a month or two.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   08:10

I think it's the competing priorities. And I think operationally at times in the senior living space, there are so many priorities that it's hard to move forward. Take engagement, for example. I think a lot more operators are prioritizing it. But when you think about it in regards to occupancy and staffing and communication and all of these other things that are wrapped up in daily community life, and to make sure your community is at an occupancy that works for everyone, as critical as this singular piece of business is, I don't think people understand its value fully to further prioritize it. Like when you stack rank what your priorities are, where does engagement fall? And sadly, even though it rose to the surface during the pandemic, wow, this is important. I think there's still a challenge with, is it more important than direct care and having enough staff and our occupancy levels that I just think we're not far enough out of the pandemic yet to take specifically what we focus on to make it even more of a priority. Sara, what would you add to that?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   09:30

I think how you explain that is interesting, and I absolutely agree. I think what operators are failing to understand is that they're all interwoven. And engagement — they're all interdependent upon each other. If you don't have good engagement, then you're not going to have high occupancy. You're not going to have satisfied staff and vice versa. And you can't just fixate on one thinking it's going to get you to the golden standard, that there has to be a collective approach to work on these simultaneously. And I think the reason that they get put on the back burner, or something does, is because we're so scared of disruption. We have convinced ourselves that residents like the same thing every day. Consistency, they don't want change. Staff is too busy to deal with change. But if we think about it, anytime an organization is moving forward, we want growing pains, we want disruption. And so looking at disruption as a positive rather than such a negative is something that we have to get towards, and that two months of disruption for two years of positive impact is a win. But we first have to accept that it could be messy for a couple months. That's just part of growth forward in any organization. Think about when you get a new iPhone, when you get a new gadget. The first two weeks are what am I doing? How many times do I hear people say, I just got a new laptop, I don't know where stuff is.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   10:45


Terrence Wang (Welbi)   10:46

So many times.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   10:46

It's optimal.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   10:47

Right. I really like that. You brought that up initially about how interconnected everything is, and I think that was one of the pieces I was going to mention when Kelly first described the focus on, say, care or occupancy. One of the big patterns we've been seeing is how occupancy is directly linked to engagement, right? The more engaged your residents, the better your occupancy tends to be. And it's like that with a lot of things. The better your engagement is, chances are your residents are also healthier. I don't think it's like a direct cause relationship, but they definitely are connected. Do you think the silos in organizations are preventing that?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   11:28

I don't know that they're preventing it. I think they inadvertently hinder. Maybe the right explanation — I think about it very similar to high school or college. When you think about the successful test grades, people that go to college, people that succeed in high school and do well are those that are engaged in something bigger than themselves. They're a part of a group. There's dependency. They have a purpose, there's pride there. And I think when we don't build out time and space for residents to discover themselves through a variety of options to be engaged, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice. And so just fixating on occupancy and getting more people in the community or filling space, just because you have higher occupancy doesn't mean that you have a good community fill. And you can move people in, but if they're not satisfied and they don't enjoy their day or they don't feel a part of something bigger than themselves, then they move out or they decline physically and mentally. So it's making space. And I think stepping back and realizing that the success that you're aiming for is predicated by knowing your customer and knowing who lives in your community. And if you don't have a way to do that, then I would argue that I don't know what you're selling that's really authentic.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   12:55

Right. You hit something on the head there, Sara. And I think it really comes back to community culture and being part of something bigger and having pride. It almost made me think about — I'm not saying we need to do this, it's a dorky idea, but why don't companies or communities have, like, a mascot? When you think about your favourite sports team, there's colours, there's mascots, there are songs. And it made me think about when I worked in a community here in Charlotte, our residents and staff had so much pride in where they lived and worked. We had some friendly competition in town with our competitors, but our residents, it mattered to them that our community was serving them well and that we were performing well and we were getting in the local news or in an industry publication. They took so much pride in that, and it was the first time I really got to experience that first hand. And I think that's a huge piece of it and it's part of the culture. But it also starts to feed into, and Sara will talk about this a lot with operators, what's going on with word of mouth referrals. Our residents sharing with friends and families how much they love where they live, that's huge. You can throw everything you got at marketing and sales, but when your residents are the ones espousing where they love to live and why. And then on the other side of the coin is the staff who say, I love working here, and they share that with friends and peers, you can't get any more powerful than that.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   14:36

That is very powerful. And I think it's very telling that those are all of the key business objectives that I think communities do have already, right? They want their residents to be happy. They want great sales and marketing, and they want it to be organic coming from the residents. They want to have great staff retention, they want to have great occupancy, they want to have great length of stay. But for some reason in a lot of communities, those objectives, there seems to be that disconnect between, oh, we want to hit those things and well, we can just achieve them if we create a sense of culture and we improve community and we make this better. How do you think we get to a point where those are very linked and people start to see, oh, to achieve these business objectives, we need to engage our community and we need to make people feel like they're connected and part of something bigger?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   15:26

One thing we continue to see that we think is interesting is there are KPIs that each department will have. Unfortunately, those KPIs are not shared across the team, I would say, so it's not uncommon for Kelly and I to go in and talk with an engagement person and ask about occupancy, and they don't know occupancy. Day to day, they haven't known it for a month. Because if it's not, and I think the lower acuity you get in the less that occupancy is talked about on that scale, what you see in skill or higher acuity. But the same thing when we ask about leads or how many new residents moved in this month, how many people moved out. Those statistics, that data is not shared. They don't know that we're trying to cut down on overtime right now. They don't know how many people are in agency or are being used. I feel like we don't have enough transparency and trust in our teams to share the business side of it. And so people don't truly understand how it is, again, interrelated. And that my role here in this space has an impact on occupancy, it has an impact on length of stay. It's not just a clinical stat we look at to say how long people live with us. I would say the same way that sales and marketing — they have to know how these programs help. What is the outcome? Why do we do a creative arts approach? What do people get out of it? How do I sell to that? And so more cross communication, but it's not that we don't have meetings to talk every morning. I think it's sharing more important information and really getting down to the basics of the business and trusting your team wants to know about it, can understand it, and you can teach them.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   17:25

I really love that because it's one of those big things I think I take for granted, having worked in a lot of different industries, how everybody is anchored towards the same KPIs at the end of the day. I don't think you look at the big picture KPIs every single day. But week over week, month over month, you have that number in your head. And you know that whether you're in sales or marketing or customer success or operations or development, you're all aiming for this north star goal. And your efforts indirectly or directly affect that. Whereas in senior living, like you said, it's not as clear and it's up to a lot of the time, outsiders like you guys at LE3 to spark that change, right?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   18:06

Something you said, Terrence. And I think when I look back, when you talk about that north star goal, I think every community organization should have that north star goal. Unfortunately, I think that north star goal is always occupancy. Rather than saying what if we just had really great customer service and took care of people well, not just clinically, but we did a great job at what we're supposed to do. Then that north star goal of just doing what is right for the residents and the customer will get you to that occupancy. And I think that's where we get a little bit jaded because this bark of occupancy is always there. But what if we just did the right thing?

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   18:52

Well, what if, right? That's the thing. If only more communities thought like that, then we wouldn't have to have this conversation about occupancy every single time. So I think the real question becomes how do we get there. And what do you see when you talk to decision makers about that? Because I'm guessing the decision makers at most levels in senior living are focused on occupancy. And they'll tell you like, yeah, that would be great, but how does it affect my occupancy? Right? So how do you have that conversation with them?

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   19:23

Because Sara and I specialize in engagement and lifestyle and community culture, there's things that have been commonplace in our space, like the calendar of activities. And I just don't ever believe that that is going to drive occupancy. That is not your make or break. When somebody is making this huge decision in their life to move into a retirement community setting, it's so much bigger than that. And we normally back away from that calendar. We're like, listen, the calendar is a piece of the puzzle. It's not the sole solution, if you will. And so it really comes back to what do you stand for when it comes to engagement and wellbeing, for your residents, but also your staff? The two are interwoven again and when staff love where they work, they take really great care of the residents, whether it's clinical care, whether it's engagement, lifestyle, dining, anything, it's all connected. And it always comes back to "what is our community culture" and "what is our foundation, our philosophy we stand on"? And then how do we craft something tangible then, based on that philosophy? So is it the calendar of offerings? Is it supportive services? Is it the design of the environment and the amenities? Is it how we move people in and what does that first 90 days and beyond look like? And does it have high touch points and is it very customer centric? There's all of these different things that feed up into what truly makes a community of engagement or connectedness. There has to be a starting point and we usually go in a different direction than a lot of operators anticipate. And a lot of times it's starting with staff satisfaction and how they are hired and on boarded. It's not where most operators think we're going to go initially.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   21:24

Where do they — so they think you're going to go from the pure deliverables like calendars and then you end up starting from staff culture and resident culture and that's where you guys start. That's really interesting. I really love that.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   21:40

We do get "we just need to upgrade our programming." There's new communities coming on, we want a younger client, what do they want to do, how they want to spend their time, what's new and up and coming. You can look at a ton of different things. That is highly driven by demographics, market, location in the U.S., climate, proximity, is it urban, is it rural? There's so many factors that come into play. Your space, what can you do in your space? But you can't start there. I think what we always look at is what is the guidance and the trust that you give to these people leading this program? What are the resources that they have? The first thing we start to look at and thank goodness for great places to work and being able to see those scores, but we look at the line for activity professionals and we look at it across the board. And in almost every organization we look at, morale, wages and being informed of what's going on is lowest with that group of people. And so we know that if one, they love what they do, they are always ranked the highest of loving what I do, I make a difference. But feeling equally important or heard in the organization is usually missing. And I mean, wages are wages. I don't know that anyone thinks they really get paid what they're worth and we know that. And so starting there, if all we want to focus on is what's going to happen with residents and what they want, the problem is still staff, that they don't even feel like they're in a place to work harder to do anything different because they're not respected or in the know.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   23:18

Exactly. And I think you really need an outsider to come in for that. I know when we talk to senior living communities and recreation departments over at Welbi, we have the same experience where a lot of the time, rec coordinators, they love their jobs but they don't feel like they're getting the support or they don't feel like other people see them as important. Like oh, that's the activities person, they make that calendar every single month and that's what they do, right? But it's so much more than that. If a community is listening to this and then realizes, oh shoot, we are definitely not putting our recreation staff — we're not giving them the importance they need. What would you say is a good first step for them? Because I feel like a lot of the time it comes off as corny if you just put out, like, a Facebook message saying something or put something in the newsletter. It's like, okay, we've done that, back to our day to day, right? So what are some real actionable steps that you think could be meaningful for these communities?

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   24:11

And Sara, I think we can ping pong back and forth. I think one thing, and these are no particular order, but I think understanding nursing or clinical staff's role. We had a conversation not too long ago with a group about, well, we try to get CNAs to help with engagement or activity second and third ship. Well there's nothing wrong with that but, put the other shoe on. If nursing said, hey, can you help... I don't know, can you help bathe people? And activity persons will be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, why are you asking me to do this? And so I think there needs to be some better time spent understanding one another's roles between nursing and engagement or activities and how you can learn to work well together, respect one another, support one another. Talking about silos, there seems to be a lot of siloing between those two departments. And so any way an operator can help foster the coming together of those two departments on a regular basis, I think can help break down some of the barriers, some of the why are you asking us to do your job? Some of that misunderstanding in the workspace. Sara, what's a tip from you?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   25:39

The other thing I would say is, please get past the part of how you introduce them on tours, whatever, "these are the people that make fun happen."

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   25:46


Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   25:46

This job is not about fun. If you've ever sat in there, there's a lot of grief, there's a lot of loss. There's transition, there's learning something new, there's making new friends, yes. And they don't play games. Children play games. Adults do programs, they do meaningful engagement. They don't play games. And so I think how you speak about this role is so important because the minute you say that to other staff, then that's when it just perpetuates that you're the fun person that plays games and sometimes dresses up in costumes. That's so juvenile. And if we want to continue to get out of that, we have to do that. The other thing I would say is when you engage them, when you engage that staff member and you ask them to talk about their department, please, please don't start with "what activities do we have on the calendar today that you'd like to share?" The job is not just facilitating activities. Actually, that's a really small part of it. And so asking questions where they get to talk about, I think, meaningful encounters they've had, residents that they've broken through to, families that they have been able to talk with and have a different change outcome. Talk about the impact and the end result rather than just asking them every day, "what's the activity of the day?" Because anybody can read that. Getting past that these four or five hours of whatever happens in the day is their job.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   27:10

And it's a problem whenever somebody misunderstands the role, right? Like, I know that's something that's happened, for example, in marketing over the past 10 years. When people say, stop, if you're a marketing person you cannot keep on telling people, oh, well, I made this piece of content today. Like nobody cares about that, right? Like, nobody does. It's all about the impact. It's like, okay, what did you achieve? Why did you create this thing? What did you impact? Who did you impact? And I think it's a very similar thing when you talk about engagement. It's not, I ran this physical activity for 40 minutes today and that's all I did. No it's, I did this because of this to engage these people and I think I broke through to these other people, and I think their families and they are very satisfied with this and will have a positive result because these are our goals, right? And that's a very different conversation and a different style of speaking almost, that I think rec departments and engagement departments need to be trained on.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   28:10

Understanding the value of the role. If the organization hasn't put an emphasis on the value of the role, if they don't have a strategy or philosophy of why they even do it, why you spend your money, how you spend it. Ask them about their budget. We hear this all the time, too. What's your budget? "I don't know, my executive director doesn't tell me." It's your department, that's your budget!

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   28:31

You nailed something on the head there talking about what would have been the outcomes. It made me think about when you have meetings with family to update them on what's going on with their loved one, but from a clinical standpoint, engagement standpoint. And too often we're reporting back, oh, mom went to 28 things this month. Or she was in X amount of minutes of activities. Or her favourite program is this. I think favorite programs have their place, but why not talk about the outcomes? Hey, mom got involved in this exercise offering, and we've already noted in six weeks, she's walking better, she's getting up from a chair better. Like, that's powerful information. And if you can even have hard data to support that, as a family member, I'd rather know about the impact and the outcomes that are occurring as opposed to, mom went to 28 things. So you're telling me she came out of her room or her apartment or her home... thanks. There's a disconnect in how activity professionals and recreational professionals are delivering their value. We need to pivot that narrative and start to talk about the outcome side, as opposed to, we had this many people at blah. Well, that's nice.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   29:54

I equate you moving to a community to being communal. You just do. That would be as if someone went to college and you said, oh, you went to class this week? Good job! Not that that's your number one goal for moving into a community, but people stay at home because they're okay being at home. People move into a community because they like the socialization. And what we have to understand is just because someone is not attending a structured offering doesn't mean that they're not socializing on many different levels, organically through the day, in all different sorts of spaces. And that's the real sign of what that is. And so how do you go beyond that participation to look at quality of life or look at a loneliness scale? Do a quick metric, an assessment that isn't so dependent upon showing up and assuming that happiness happens just because we show up.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   30:51

Well, I think it's time for engagement to move beyond attendance, and that's very powerful. I know we are also running up against time. So before we end off, are there any last words you guys want to mention for all the activity professionals and especially all the operations professionals out there who might be listening to this and this might be their first glance at like, wow, recreation is really important, holy crap.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   31:19

I think first, nothing but gratitude and respect for all of the activity and recreational professionals leading up to COVID, but most certainly these past two years, because their roles got flipped, turned upside down. And so Sara and I know how difficult these last 24 months have been. And so one, let's start with gratitude for those individuals. Operations, I think it's time to start looking at this piece of service as an actual business line. Make a business case for it. Your dining department has it, your sales team has it, your marketing team, clinical, you name it. It's time for this sector of our industry to really start to have a strategic plan around it, have some ROI. All of the business acumen we apply for these other departments have never settled on programming, engagement, activities. And I think it's time to start looking at it differently. Sara?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   32:22

You know, that same thing, I know it doesn't just occur by happenstance. You can't put amenities in a community, you can't outfit it with great equipment or pools, and people will just show up. And so, to your point, putting a strategy behind it, putting goals behind it, and realizing that it's so much bigger than what a space looks like. It's always how a space feels, it's how a community feels that will, I think, sell itself over and over again. And I think the other part is just having the, I don't know if it's the moral code or the ethics, to make sure that what you're selling is true and accurate. What you put on websites, foods you post, pictures you post, let it be a true representation. I think that is only something that will help the industry as a whole. It's not about competing anymore, but that we say or we do what we say and people don't get burned by something. And if you're not there yet, you're not there yet. And that's something to be okay with too, because I think there's a lot of misconception that we're all there, and we know we're not. It's not a bad thing. What Kelly and I talk about often is, just because you don't have this side of the business all laid out, and doing well like you would dining or sales or whatever it is, you're still at a place to start. And that's much further along than a lot of people. So having the conversations about it, looking at ways that you can improve it, looking at what you have and who you hire, how you train. That's the first step on this journey and that's a lot farther than a lot of people. So give yourself some grace in that. Know that it doesn't change overnight and you can't just change a calendar next month and have a new result, it's a process.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   34:19

That's very powerful Sara and Kelly. Thank you guys so much for joining me on the show today. For all the listeners out there who are looking to maybe bring in an outside voice, to get that outside perspective on how they can improve their engagement, what's the best way for them to find LE3?

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   34:41

Our website is www.le3solutions.com and you can reach us there, you can find us on LinkedIn. Just shoot us an email, sara or kelly @ le3solutions.com.

Terrence Wang (Welbi)   34:54

It was a pleasure speaking with you both and I will catch you both soon.

Kelly Stranburg (LE3 Solutions)   34:58

Thank you so much.

Sara Kyle (LE3 Solutions)   34:59

Nice chatting.

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